Season 2 Episode 3: Hiking, Healing, and Adornment with Kenya and Michelle

Episode Transcript

Backyard Basecamp is a Black-led environmental organization based in Northeast Baltimore City whose mission is to (re)connect Black, Indigenous, People of Color to land and nature. BLISS Meadows is their innovative social justice project to reclaim 10 acres of vacant land in their neighborhood. Through this work, they've built public and private partnerships to secure the land, and are developing an urban community farm and hub for environmental literacy and justice.

You can follow them on social media: IG - Backyard_Basecamp, FB - BackyardBasecamp, and Twitter - Backyard_Base, and/or donate to the cause via their website www.BackyardBasecamp.org

[INTRO]: You’re listening to Outside Voices Podcast. We’re using our outside voices to redefine what it means to spend time outside and connect to nature. I’m your host, Sarah Shimazaki. Let’s get started. 

CJ Goulding: Hi, my name is CJ Goulding, and though I am not Sarah Shimazaki, I will be your temporary host for a few conversations this season. 

I am rooted in an immigrant, Jamaican family, an exploring kid who was kicked outside very early on, and a culture connected to the nature at its core. 

I love stories. Listening to them, amplifying them, creating them, and shattering them when necessary. 

I am a connector, a weaver, and facilitator of change and growth in people, community, and the systems we live in. 

One of the ways I do that is with The Avarna Group, a firm that provides resources and innovating strategies that support the outdoor and environmental sectors in their evolution toward justice, equity, diversity, inclusion. We also strive to support and partner with others advancing this cause, which is how these episodes are coming to life.

Now, I met Kenya and Michelle and immediately became enamored with their magnetic personalities and sharp minds. I also jumped into whatever I could do to support their work with Outdoor Journal Tour, a hybrid health organization that combines the healing tenets of outdoor activity with mindful meditation and introspective journaling. They take predominantly women up on physical mountains to help them overcome emotional and mental mountains.

Being someone who identifies as a Black man, we’ve had a few conversations about what support looks like, how to care for them, how to show up for them in ways that are often lacking in these industries and communities.

So, welcome into one of those conversations! Get to know them, their purpose, how they have been providing healing and making space for healing themselves, and ideas for how to be an accomplice. 

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I'm Kenya Jackson Saulters.  I am from Cleveland, Ohio. Been down here in Atlanta for about 15 years. Professionally, I was a nonprofit consultant for eight years before I started doing work in outdoor spaces. I am a writer. Four-time published, self help author. I serve as the Chief Experience Officer of the Outdoor Journal Tour. I like all things mindfulness. I like all things smell good, like candles and sprays and oils. And I am a big fan....I'm thinking of like a random fact....I'm a big fan of like star stuff in the solar system, which is kind of random. And what else do people know about me? I wear heels in our photoshoots even when they are about hiking in the outdoors because that's part of my personality.  

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I do not wear heels.

So I am Michelle, also Jackson-Saulters. I am army brat. I grew up in Germany. I have lived in the States since 99, so almost 20 years. And I've lived in Atlanta for about 16 years.

I'm definitely a...I want to say easygoing, but I know Kenya will say that's not true, but I feel like I'm easygoing. I'm very giggly. I like to keep things, the energy up as much as possible because Michelle does not like to deal with emotions and feelings. That's Kenya's world realm. I'm getting better with expressing myself and dealing with that sort of thing. I really like organizing stuff, I'm very into details and planning things. So Kenya likes to make fun and say that I like the actual, like planning of an event more than I like the actual event, which is probably true.

CJ: We can be friends.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I don't know. I just like putting things together. In my next life. I want to be a carpenter. I like doing things with my hands. Like just physical. I feel like when I'm doing physical type projects, it clears my head. It's almost meditative for me. So yeah, I've been doing outdoor stuff for my whole life but hiking and visiting national parks and state parks and that sort of thing is probably the last eight ish years. I haven't gotten into backpacking too much. I've gone on one, a guided trip, but that is something that I want to explore more. That is a bunch of random facts about me.

CJ Goulding: “As we continued chatting, I got a glimpse of Kenya and Michelle’s individual personalities, and their dynamic as a couple shines through, and connects to the purpose of Outdoor Journal Tour as well”

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I am very detail oriented, Kenya is very much the ideator and big picture, and she comes up with these great, great ideas and then I usually kind of put the plan together to execute. So it works out well. Because we have a little bit of both ends of the spectrum there. Kenya does a lot of the content and the meditation, the mindfulness piece, basically the meditations and like she said, she's published other books. So she is definitely the writer, although I've started writing more. Kenya is content and I'm execution, actually bringing the thing into fruition and making it happen. Sometimes we butt heads, that happens, because you'll have these huge grandiose ideas, and I'll be like, how the heck are we going to do that? Like, literally practically, how are we going to make that happen? And Kenya is like, you got to think bigger. Michelle...

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: Yeah. But that actually makes a lot of sense. Like when he asked us a question about who we were and how it shows up in the business...because we're sitting in our room recording this and I'm looking over at my shelf of like smell goods and oils and all that kind of thing. And one of the things that I'm responsible for, in Outdoor Journal Tour is creating this vibe, right, you know, I want the women to have a certain experience once they're with us, I want them to feel a certain thing once they're with us. Similarly, that I adorn myself and I see that I do that same thing with the women, I'm really trying to almost like adorn them, you know, and, and make them feel beautiful and make them feel very special. So I think that aspect of my personality kind of comes out in the business and similarly with Michelle. 

Michelle is one of the hardest working people that I know. So there is something that she wants to happen, like she will make sure that that thing happens even if she has to do it herself. She does not really take no for an answer and she'll figure it out. In a lot of people if something gets annoying or frustrating, they’ll just walk away from it. Michelle does not back down from those types of challenges, which is really personal. She's like, well, we'll figure it out. And I think that's really awesome because we've had to pivot so many different times. And when you're doing something, an outdoor setting, I mean, you're always having to figure out “okay, well, that part is flooded, or this part is muddy, or you know, when I came the last time this tree wasn't here”, and she's got the type of mind that helps us to navigate that on the spot, really seamlessly. And that has been a gift. It really has been a gift. Yeah.

CJ (in interview): All good super heroes or heroines have a origin story. So for spider man, he got bitten by the spider for like all these other heroes, they had this one, something that brought them in this direction. And so I'd love to hear an origin story or catalyst or something that happened that brought you here….like first or grounding experience that you had in nature or like a catalyst like the thing that brought to it closer to being this person that exists in this space. 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I have always been like when I was a kid, I was that kid that got the note on the report card, you know? “Michelle does great in school, but she's a busybody or, she talks to everybody.” So I think I've always been very much interested in bringing people together and connecting with people, I think even as a little kid. I just have always wanted to bring people together, create a space where people can feel good and be happy and joyful or whatever. So I've always been very much a people person. I think in some ways it's been a double edged sword, sometimes it's really great in the settings and sometimes it becomes more people pleasing, which isn't necessarily great, but I think that it plays well in the direction I need it to for this, not just for Outdoor Journal Tour and We Hike to Heal. 

But as far as my experience outdoors, I never was an indoor kid, I'm also like an 80s baby so it was before gaming systems really. I mean, there was but it just wasn't the same as the years went on, but I've always been kind of an outdoor kid. You know, playing at the park or just being outside, even as a teenager, sitting outside and talking to my friends, mostly because I wanted to be away from my parents, because I just wanted to be a kid and whatever. And that usually meant being outside. So, while it wasn't the traditional, camping or hiking or backpacking, I definitely was an outdoor kid. I probably played at a playground until I was like, 14. And then of course, at 15, 16 it became the place where we went where adults weren't around.

So always, always being outdoors. And my grandparents also had a garden. I have so many memories like being in that garden, digging stuff up and getting in trouble for digging things up. But then, just the curiosity of wanting to be a part of their experience. So I think I've always been kind of an outdoor kid...That was a very long winded way of saying I've always been an outdoor kid.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I definitely had a different experience than Michelle, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. So I always say that Cleveland is very cold and very dark. But the cool thing about it was my mom and I, we didn't have a car when I was growing up. And so we would walk to and from school every day from my grandmother's house. And I just was up there a couple years ago and realized that that was probably two miles, maybe three. So it's a beautiful walk. And we would do that every night when I was a little girl. And on the way walking home in the cold and the snow and whatever type of elements that were, in the spring when it was nice out, we would always talk and that was our time to like kind of chat with each other, connect, and everything. 

And I can remember being you know, all bonded up in my little snow suit and like telling her about my day and this boy that I liked and this girl that I didn't like you know and all type of things and it was such an opportunity for the two of us to bond with each other. So I don't think there's any mistake that the business that we ended up working in and founding has to do with being outside and walking and talking because that was really my introduction to outdoors. 

But as it relates to the mindfulness piece and the writing piece, I always had an interest in words and writing, that was something that my teachers and my mother really cultivated in me, they always were like, my mom was always very much like, “express yourself, can you express yourself Kenya?” and I did poetry. I was a relatively successful poet as a kid, I got asked to be in those little anthology books and stuff. And, as an adult, I actually did slam for quite a few years before I started writing nonfiction. And before I started doing prose, I was doing poetry on stages with hundreds of people, sometimes competitively. 

And I realized at a very young age, I was saying, my teen years, that there are certain things that you could do that can bring other people together and also inspire us. And stir up thought within them. And I think that I've always wanted to do that, I've always wanted to be able to say something or do something to make somebody else think, even if they were interacting with me, I want them to be able to go back into some space and kind of contemplate what I said, and what that brought up for them. And so I think that all of those things kind of come together to make me incredibly sensitive to other people's needs, but also a huge advocate of self expression, and a huge advocate of being your true self and allowing that to speak to other people and encourage them to do the same.

CJ Goulding: So, as we mentioned before, Kenya and Michelle co-founded and co-lead an organization called Outdoor Journal Tour, taking predominantly women-identified folks up on physical mountains to help them overcome emotional and mental mountains. As Kenya describes it, it all started five years ago..

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I personally was having a lot of struggles with anxiety and depression. I wasn't really feeling that great. And it was one of those things where there was nothing wrong, you know, had money, was in a great relationship, was having some body confidence, you know, everything was fine, but I was just really sad. And I was like, “Okay, you know what? We're gonna go up on this mountain in Atlanta, it's called Stone Mountain, I'm gonna take like three or four of my friends up, we're gonna talk and meditate. And then somehow this is going to make me feel better.” 

And so we go up there, and I'm leading these four people who were crazy enough to join me. And, we do a meditation. And when we opened our eyes in meditation, there were two people with us that did not come with us. And they were kind of like, “Well, how can we join the program?” And, of course, there was no program at that time. And Michelle, however, which is why this is crazy. She goes, “Well, we'll take your email addresses and we will contact you!” and I'm just planning, we figure it out, right? How will we make this happen. 

And I mean, that was in June, and by September, we had our first event. Because for me, having Source (I do make reference to Source and God. So I hope that's okay). But for me having Source bring people to me felt like a responsibility and it felt like “okay, this is something that I need to do because these women were attracted to me for whatever reason, and maybe I have something I can give them, and maybe giving them something will help me feel a little bit less empty or whatever was going on with me.” And then Michelle immediately sprung into action doing the thing that she does, and created a framework around it almost immediately.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: So we're sitting there close with our eyes closed, and we open them. And now granted, we were all women of color that were up there, and the two women that joined us were Black women. So I think there's something there when you see other people who look like you in a space where there aren't very many people who look like you. And they're doing something that you don't typically see Black people do, sitting on top of a mountain meditating. Not that people know that black people don't do that, just I don't think that we see it enough. So for them to see that and come and sit with us while our eyes were closed, but while we're in the middle of meditation, they're like, “we're gonna join this program. I don't know what this group is, but we want to be a part of it.”

We say it's a hybrid health organization because when people hear health, they think physical health, which absolutely physical health is a part of it, for sure. But our mental and emotional health is just as connected as our bodies are. So that's why we call it a hybrid because it's not just the hiking, it's not just the physical activity. It's the mental and emotional work that we do while we're out there too.

CJ Goulding: Outings in nature might be how you are familiar with Outdoor Journal Tour, but those are bit the only spaces created and curated. “Adornment” for this community includes much more...

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: And then also I'm huge on content creation, right? There's a library of ebooks that we have available online and e-journals and different types of products that people can access at any time. Some of them are even free. I just created them just because I thought they were fun, like just take this and go with it. So for individuals that can't get out with us...because we do hear a lot [of people saying] “can you come here? And will you be here?” And we're just two people and we can't be everywhere. We wanted people to be able to have access to healing and wellness resources, though, so they can get that online. 

And then throughout the year, we'll have masterclasses or different events that people can join, online or in person when we can go outside again. So we try to be as diverse as possible about how we do that. And most recently, we've got the We Hike to Heal at Home box which we mail you pretty much a whole like 'hike in a box', sort of sharing where you can do everything from the candles in the spirit. And the journals too, the succulent plants and all that, the essential oils, all that stuff is in there so people can have their own experiences, [along with] journaling prompts and music. We just did a whole bunch of stuff. So all that stuff is in there. So you're gonna have that experience, even if they can't be with us. 

CJ Goulding: During the pandemic, Outdoor Journal Tour has not stopped. They’re adapting their offerings so that folks can tune in or get involved virtually through the end of the year and into 2021. But you’ve gotta move fast, because some of their options can be limited….and I’m speaking from experience. 

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: So the biggest thing that we have going on right now is We Hike to Heal at Home. And we actually underestimated the community response because we sold out of We Hike to Heal at Home boxes in less than maybe two weeks. So we sold t shirts...

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: did you get one? 

CJ Goulding: No.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: Okay, I think we're gonna I think we're gonna do them again. Like, maybe in the fall and do like long sleeves or hoodies or something. 

CJ Goulding: (They are doing the hoodies again, along with several other options. I got mine, check it out and maybe get one of your own!)

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: It was a lot y'all. Just having a fulfillment center and your living room is just not a game and I have a full time job and Kenya is working on a project. So we were not sleeping. It was a lot. It was a lot. 

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: It's a gift though because we worked. I mean we've been doing this...if we're going into We Hike to Heal will be in its fifth year in 2021 so this is has probably been about four years or at least three and a half years of having hikes when maybe less than 20 people would show. We've had like two or three people and sometimes not get a response so it feels really good to have a community that is behind us. 

And so what we did..because I want to say this on the podcast cuz this is a real thing and you guys are gonna be the first to hear it. Um, what we did was We Hike to Heal at home as we allow there to be three different categories that you could pick from and had like a little quiz on there. One was all about adventure and courage one was all about kindness and compassion and then one was all about dreaming and doing and the community really, really loved that. 

So we're going to do affirmation writing, where we're going to write affirmations. And Michelle is going to teach people how to pick their first place to go hiking and some gear swaps and stuff and really practical ways that our community can care for themselves during this time. And everyone that we have has agreed to do that and give people real takeaways. So I'm really, really excited about that as well.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: And then we have aroma therapy at home. So one of our friends, she has a company, Creol Secret (that's actually the the blend that's in the box), but she's gonna do at home stuff like lemon peels and cinnamon and that sort of thing that you can actually just kind of boil down on your stove and have some aromatherapy going on in your home. And then the last one is the envision journaling.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: [We] will make the content available on the website even after it's over. So people will still be able to access the recordings because it'll be done via zoom so they'll still be able to access it. So anything that you need, all things Outdoor Journal tour, are located on www.wehiketoheal.org right now. And you can also get it on @outdoorjournaltour, which is our Instagram page and there's a link tree on there that will take you to all of our websites and help you sign up for anything that we have going on.

CJ Goulding: Do you type in www. before you type in the website.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: No I actually do do 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: No you don't you don't have to do that. Kenya is a little bit of a technology grandma? It's just wehiketoheal.org

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: Yes. CJ you don't have to do that???

Y'all are lying really? 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: No you don't have to do that. I told you that many times and you do it even when you have like the Bentley's

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: but when people type it,

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: you don't need to type it. It's okay. 

CJ Goulding: (mimicking) www….

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: Okay, so take two. wehiketoheal.org

CJ Goulding: curious, I like she was very intentional. She was like www...

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I didn't know okay, 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: you're silly. You're silly.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I wish I was joking. I'm not .

CJ Goulding: Today, we learning new things today. Yeah.

CJ Goulding: 2020 is almost over. And it’s been a wild year of adaptation, and virtual everything, from birthday parties to concerts to classes to graduations. And we all know not everything translates to online. So I asked Kenya and Michelle what a virtual Outdoor Journal Tour looks like, and how they’re handling that change. 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: Honestly, it's been really hard. It's simple enough to pivot and put things online. Like that's not the hard part. The hard part is [that] it takes a little bit more effort to really feel connected with other people, you really have to be purposeful in the virtual communication. I missed just being out there and actually looking at people, in person hugs, the giggling, the photos, like all the little things that happen in between. There's a lot of emotional work that happens, but then it's also just a lot of fun too. It's not all feelings and crying and exposing your deepest, darkest secrets. Sometimes it's that and then sometimes it's giggling about something that your kids did or something that you forgot, it's just it's just being able to connect with other people in our community and that are looking for similar type of experiences and wanting to just be outside and be able to pause and be in the present moment and have a good time. So I really, really miss that, I miss being surprised by how impacted women are and seeing how they react to certain things and just watching people have this change in energy. 

Seeing that in person is a lot different than virtually but I but also I will say, when we did the We Hike to Heal zoom event, it was crazy because I started to feel that same energy, just amongst the faces on the screen, you know, because everybody was there for the same reason. So it's definitely possible. But I missed being in person.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: Yeah, same thing I really miss my community, I miss being with them. And I feel a very real call that they need someplace to go, they need a place to rest, they need a place to relax. The stress that we will hear from women who we hadn't seen in just a month, being home and their jobs and kids and families and needing that respite so much. My heart really aches for the way that I know a lot of people are feeling right now. Me just really wishing that we could provide them with some sort of a respite or just a way to get away or a community of women to talk to them. That has been very, very, very, very hard. And also just not knowing when that's going to be realistic for us again. You know, I was thinking I could do a pop up and say the first six people and all that, which we could do, and that wouldn't be impossible, but it doesn't feel the same. So it's been difficult.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: We also just want to be mindful that we want to lead by example, and not saying that we can't recreate responsibly, we definitely can. But I think it's one thing to make a decision amongst friends to go out somewhere together, versus an organization putting on an event and what that looks like. There's a, there's a responsibility in that too.

CJ Goulding: That's awesome. Yeah. And that's a struggle in the transition to virtual. I like what you said, that it's easy to put things online, but it's not easy to create a type which is different and set that stage differently and just take into consideration the different strengths you bring to a physical, in-person event that you may have to do in a different way. 

Oh, one more quick question before I switch gears a little bit, one more. How are you? I think you referenced earlier but how have you personally used hiking or the outdoors as places for healing with all this going on?

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I do not do the best job of slowing down, resting, pausing. So for me, when I go out on a hike, it is my opportunity to slow down, it’s my opportunity to be creative. It's just, it's my time for me. So I've probably been hiking or just neighborhood walks more since COVID started since March then then before.

I didn't used to walk through our neighborhood, I would occasionally if I couldn't get anywhere else, but to the point where it's almost every day every other day, walking through my neighborhood, walking in different parts of neighborhood when it was the very beginning part of COVID when everybody was still very much inside and not doing anything. And I found, all these neighborhoods and these routes and I'm planning routes in the neighborhood of where I'm gonna walk and Kenya is like, “How did you even find eight miles to walk? On Saturday?” So I actually really enjoyed that a lot. I've spent a lot of time just outdoors clearing my head if I'm tired, if I'm having a shitty day, if my energy is just low, I will go outside even if it's just for a short walk in the neighborhood. It just gives me a chance to like shake up my energy and it usually works, it usually works. 

That's always been my place to just remind myself that I can take a break but also I'm capable of doing things by myself and that I'm like I'm stronger than I give myself credit for. 

I have just a new found love and appreciation for spending time in my hammock. It's so relaxing. I feel like I'm being cradled in my mother's womb. Okay, it's so perfect. Like it really is. So if I'm not in the mood to go for a walk or, I don't have enough time. Sometimes in the middle of the day, I'll put my hammock up and just go lay out there and look at the clouds or look on Instagram or something like that. So it's definitely been a place where I have been taking a pause taking time for myself.

CJ Goulding: We’re going to take a pause, too.

Merrell believes in sharing the simple power of being outside. They provide innovative, thoughtfully designed footwear and apparel products that enable anybody to pick up their gear and feel adventurous, confident, and ready to enjoy the outdoors. They have partnered with Outdoor Journal Tour for the last couple years through support of both their community platform and Michelle and Kenya individually through gear, financial resources, as well as media assets to connect their mission to the Merrell community and beyond. Merrell believes that no matter who you are, where you come from, who you love or how you move — Everyone should be welcome in the outdoors and wherever life takes us. 

CJ Goulding: When I started in the outdoor education field, I saw it as something so drastically different and far removed from the community and neighborhood I grew up in. I would lead trips or crews for the summer, then go home and deal with separate issues in my community, even while trying to get kids on my trips to find connections between their “wilderness” experiences and life at home. 

I initially thought that I was a bridge between two worlds. And though I do believe that to some degree, I continue to learn about the interconnection between issues of justice and the environment. Now I strive for my impact to live in the middle of that Venn diagram on a daily basis, through my work training and supporting young leaders of color and as a partner and facilitator in diversity, equity, and inclusion with the Avarna Group. 

Though it exists every day for communities of color, it gets a spotlight and takes center stage during times like this summer, when the killing of Black bodies (not to diminish the oppression of other people of color) sparks uprising and causes everyone to face the reality.

Often times when these fields and industries are faced with the overlap of nature and social justice, people start getting nervous and scared. They jump to releasing a statement, and the intro to DEI session, and thinking, ‘who can we pay to be an ambassador so that we have Black faces representing us on the internet.’ And then there are some people just plainly say that there is no connection between social justice and what’s happening in our communities and the outdoors.

I wonder what Kenya and Michelle think about this intersection?

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I think and I've said this before, I think that nature proper, meaning tree, grass, flower bird...no. I don't think that there's necessarily a connection between social justice and nature. You know as it relates to soil and that kind of thing, but I think that when you layer that with the outdoor industry, right, which is really what we're talking about, 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: again, people... 

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: you know, when you put the people part in it, when you put the personal experience part in it, there absolutely is a connection. And also, you know, even now I think about it, even with soil there is a history of black people and our relationship to the land here, people, indigenous people, relationship to the land. 

And so for us, I think, you know, everything about my experience has been colored by the fact that I am a black woman, right? Everything about it, everything about the way that I moved to the world is colored by that and so, if the outdoor industry wants to celebrate Outdoor Journal Tour, if they want to celebrate Kenya and Michelle, they need to do that by understanding that we are women of color, and that we identify as black women. And the whole of our experience is rooted in the black experience. And we are very clear about that, we're very, very clear about that, that this is a black woman's experience and accepting our work and celebrating our work means accepting and celebrating us as black women. But it has been difficult, right? 

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: Because tree and bird and grass is what people try to talk about Oh, there's no racism in that. Yeah, okay, great. But if you want to go to a national park, racism. If you want to spend a night at a camping trip, racism. If you want to be with your family in the woods, racism, right. If you want to buy certain gear, socio economic racism, like all those things are there. And so we have to acknowledge those things. 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: This society, capitalism, all of it is related to people to human beings and our in this country. It is absolutely systematic. And I think it was Faith (Briggs) that was saying, I don't know where she read or heard, but she had this realization that 'Oh wait, this stuff, like nothing was really designed with black people in mind' or with or with native people, with people of color in mind period, like this is a society that was designed for White people. Was it always necessarily for the purpose of oppressing people of color? Maybe, maybe not. I think that's a part of the systematic racism is that you're so trapped in your own White bubble that you don't see past that, whether or not it has been purposeful in some situations, it absolutely has been. It is still systematic and it still affects people in many different ways. And like Kenya said, we cannot stop being Black, we can't stop having a Black experience, we're not looking for special treatment because we're Black. We just want acknowledgement that our experience is going to be different, it just is because that's the way this country is set up.

CJ Goulding: In previous conversations, Michelle, Kenya, and I have discussed the layers, the intersectionality of life as Black women, and I wanted to make sure we honored that in this conversation as well. We dove a little deeper into the concept of intersectionality and how it shows up in their lives as women, as Black women, and as Black women in the outdoor industry.

I also want to acknowledge that I am entering into this conversation with the perspective of a cis Black man talking to Black women, and that the themes in this conversation expand to other genders and communities as well. 

CJ Goulding: From your perspective and lived experience what does it mean to "listen to and to protect black women?"

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: So when you ask that question, I'm always really triggered by that anyway, like the protect black women thing, I'm always really triggered because I think I've never felt protected. And the first voice that I heard said, “Well, who were you asking to protect you? Like who? Who do I want to protect me? Do I want black men to protect me? Do I want Black women that protect me? Do I want White men and White women? Like who do I want to protect me?” 

So what I would say is what does it mean? Is it really just acknowledging the experience that Black women have, and honoring what that experience looks like. 

And then also being intentional about celebrating Black women in all of our experience. So for example, in the outdoor industry, one of the things a lot of people are very vocal about is gear, right? So, gear that isn't designed to fit women who are historically a little curvier, who are historically a little bit heavier, that doesn't exist, right. So when you have Kenya and Michelle, as your ambassadors or you bring us on board for some sort of an event and then we can't wear the clothes, that's a problem, right? That is not listening to, protecting, or honoring the experience of Black women. 

And that when it comes from a social perspective, I think it means creating a space for Black women that is not performative. Right? So it's not including me because you need to have a Black face, but including me because you actually respect the work that I do, and you value me as an individual, and you value what I bring to the table. You know, with We Hike to Heal, for example, We Hike to Heal is one of the largest if not the largest events of its kind, hard stop period. And we were able to get all of these different organizations to be working with us and hiking with us and doing that for years before we were sponsored. And then once we were sponsored, we were still able to get it and got it to grow and become big. And so when people include us in language about "Okay, here's Black History Month and here's Kenya and Michelle with We Hike to Heal.” It's like, no, We Hike to Heal is dope because it's dope. And it's founded by Black women, right? But it's not dope because we're black. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's dope AND they're Black, you know? 

And so for me that's when I start to feel like I'm not protected that's when I start to feel like I'm being exposed or I'm being tokenized or I'm being used. And that's a problem because I know that my face and my voice is what makes other Black women trust all of it, trust outdoors, trust the people that sponsor us, trust hiking, seeing me and seeing Michelle is what makes Black women feel comfortable even doing it. So it's like don't trivialize me or don't tokenize me, but really celebrate me for everything that I am. 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I think acknowledgement goes a long way. I think there are a lot of stereotypes and a lot of assumptions that are made. You know, Black women are angry or Black women are hard, or they can tolerate more pain, more bullshit. There's this idea that we don't even need caring for, that that we've got it under control. And while that may be true, I don't know that we always want to do that.

You know, I think that historically our ancestors, we have shouldered a lot because it was required of us, because it is something that was necessary. And I think that that has continued on and it's not necessary in the same way. We are, yes, very strong, yes, we can handle things, but should we have to? You know, could some of this load be taken on by other people? And can we be believed for what we are saying what either we need, or what we're able to do or what we want to do or fill in the blank, it could be anything, but I think that it's very deep seated and it's very layered.  

It's okay for us to be strong, but it's also okay to share some of that burden sometimes and not feeling like you can't ask for help or that somebody won't believe you. Even going to a doctor's, a lot of times people ask, “Why do you look for female doctors, specifically Black female doctors?” (which is not always easy to find). But you know, with my therapist, obgyn, all of those things, where you almost feel like it needs to be someone who can identify with you somehow. 

Yeah, like not even to show weakness, but just to be human.

CJ Goulding: That request seems simple, no? Just to be human, not to be seen as extreme on either side. Not seen as the angry Black woman. Not having to always be strong. Caring for moments of weakness and vulnerability, and honoring the blend of all of the above.

We’ve talked about ways that can happen, starting with open community dialogue between Black men and women, and continuing to develop and practice supportive or protective actions from there.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: You know honestly CJ, I'm feeling very drawn to that concept, which was the concept of conversations between Black men and Black women, and what it means to be protected. And I think when I'm sitting as I'm sitting here, I'm thinking to myself, I would have to start with the question (bring my heater please). I would start with the question: “What does it mean to be protected?” Because that is part of what I was kind of grappling with and trying to answer the question. Like, if this isn't something that I have experienced, I'm not even sure that I know what it looks like, right? Like, I'm not even sure that I know 100% what it would look like to be protected or to feel like I was prioritized in that way. 

But one example that I can bring up that the outdoor community will be able to identify with is: a couple of times over the past probably six months, we have been posted by our sponsors, right. So REI did a post about us and Merrell did a post about us. Timing wise, I'm not sure that either of them picked the right time to do the post because they were very much right around the time when it was all this racial unrest and it looked like 'here's our black gay things', right. The response of the community at large was really, really negative for both of those posts. Right. And I think what it would have meant to be protected is possibly to have men, especially Black men coming to our defense, and I think to myself, had it been Women's History Month, right? And then they posted something about women and those women happen to be White. And those women have received the same level of just horrible reactions. What would the organization's response have been? And I think that both brands did a really great job of trying to mitigate the damage that we experienced. But the crazy thing is as Black women who are commonly in this situation, there were not even tears. Like, we were getting more [of] the white women in our community in our circle were sending us emails like, ‘Oh my god, Are y'all okay? Are y'all all right? Like how do you feel?’ and I felt like Michelle and I are almost numb to stuff like that. 

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: The first time was bad. It was bad,

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: But it's like we didn't feel comfortable even being as hurt as we should have been, and also didn't feel as if I didn't feel like, ‘Let's protect Kenya and Michelle’, it felt like, ‘let's not make this look bad on the internet.’ Does that make sense? And I think that protecting black women, for me would mean that if I was put in a situation like that, and I was talked to that way, then it is the men--because I do think there's a there's a there's a definitely a call for men to be there--then the men around with stand up and be like, ‘you will not talk to these women like this.’ And I think that is kind of what for me that I feel like I'm missing. 

CJ Goulding: For me, the idea of protection, you talked about not not showing up as weak, but for me, protection doesn't necessarily indicate that someone is weak. It indicates that someone is being attacked or someone is being threatened. Protection doesn't say anything about the person but more so the situation that they're in and so your example of “hey, these are spaces where I would feel protected by having somebody step in with me and be involved in this with me or speak up with me or for me, and things like that.” So that that resonates with rings and rings rings pretty powerfully.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: Yeah. And I mean, just in the social justice in the social justice vein, black women have been incredibly adamant and and on the front lines of protecting Black men and making sure that Black men's names are on the lips of the world when there's injustices against Black women or against Black because we're like these are our sons and our fathers and our husbands. And I don't always feel like the Black men are as present when something happens to a Black woman.

CJ Goulding: It was important for me to have this conversation, to hear what they had to say, even if some of it was expressing pain, or feedback on how the ball was being dropped by Black men in relation to Black women. 

And that brought me back to the framework of Outdoor Journal Tour, of hiking, journaling, and meditation. The journaling and meditation serve as healing of trauma, and the hiking is an action paired with that healing. 

When I think about restoring relationship and community between Black men and women, I think of conversations like this, where there is open sharing and reflecting, which is kind of like the journaling in the framework, where we're healing and rebuilding that connection. We (and speaking for myself, I) have the responsibility to ensure our actions speak just as loudly as our words. 

This is just the beginning.

Now, we’ve talked about roots, about their views on current events and society, so I wanted to hear their thoughts looking forward. 

So what is your vision? Or what is a vision that you have of the future or for the future, whether that's for society or the outdoor industry?

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: Well, sitting in the place that we're sitting in now, I think that COVID-19 has been very difficult. It's uprooted a lot of things, a lot of ideas, but there are some very real lessons that we learned during this time. And my vision is that we don't lose these lessons and that it doesn't require another pandemic or another wave of racial unrest or another wave of extreme weather patterns or any of those things for us to remember our worth and the worth of other human beings and just the value of life. And then, I don't know about for the outdoor industry but for Outdoor Journal Tour, I definitely have a vision of us being a premier wellness contender and the We Hike to Heal property being something that is internationally known and participated in by millions of women every year, something that people look forward to, that they're excited about, and something that outlives Michelle and I.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: you know, I think that I have always been a little bit of a one worlder. But not necessarily in a way where everyone is neutral but in a way where we can appreciate the differences in our culture or the differences in our experience. I don't know what that looks like in the outdoor industry, if I'm completely honest. I think that there is still....well let me not do that. In a perfect world, it would be...our differences would be celebrated.

And it would not be this hush hush, don't talk about people being Black don't talk about people being fat, don't talk about people being non binary, it's okay to talk about who you are, it's okay to have conversations and it's okay to be different. It's okay to just have your own experience. 

But I think it's seeing that represented a little bit more. So when we go to (hopefully) to OR, again, at some point, it not being just a sea of white people, [but] seeing other people, they're seeing different modes of outdoor activity being acknowledged and, highlighted in the same way that some of the traditional things are. And just being a more inclusive space in general.

CJ Goulding: After we finished talking, I stepped away from the conversation with the contagious enthusiasm that comes from Michelle and Kenya being their unapologetic and authentic selves. In reflecting, I’m realizing how much of who they are gets poured into their efforts to adorn their community, to remove barriers, and create ways for the women of Outdoor Journal Tour to feel represented and unrestricted physically and emotionally through the outdoors. That’s definitely a mood I’m carrying into 2021 and beyond, and a commitment I’m making to support that however I can.

Now to hear their final words of wisdom.

Michelle Jackson-Saulters: I would just encourage people to find a way...figure out what their way of doing the outdoors is, you know? Like what is how do you find that connection. You know, it may not be hiking, might be on the water, it might be climbing, it might just be sitting on a patio but I think that there is healing outdoors, but a lot of it is because we take the time to be present. And to observe what's happening around us and I just want to encourage people to find out, figure out what that way is for you, because it may not be the same for everyone. And then do that thing. And pause when you need to and get outside and just feel the sun on your skin or the rain on your skin or whatever. Just have a moment to be present and to really remind yourself that you are a human being living on a little planet in space, that this is the experience that we're having.

Kenya Jackson-Saulters: I've been playing around a lot, like certain words will just be in my head for days. And it does kind of like play over and over and over. And one of the things that I wrote recently is that purpose is not competitive, it's cooperative. Meaning, when you have a purpose in your life, it is not in competition with anybody else's cooperative. So, what I'm hearing is, how can you right now, how can you cooperate with your environment to create something purposeful and beautiful in your life? How can you cooperate? How can you move from a space of being frustrated from a space of being angry, from a space of feeling caged in a space of resistance? How can you move into a space of cooperation? So what in your current circumstance can you use as a catalyst for something purposeful?

CJ Goulding: Thank you to Kenya and Michelle for willingly sharing, and thank YOU for joining me in amplifying their personalities, voices, expertise. Now it’s time to run out of the booth before Sarah gets back ;)

Our logo and cover art was designed by Brooklyn Bell. Our music was performed by LIVS or Olivia VanDamme and produced by Jamison Blue Stegmaier

All credits, links and resources can be found on our website: www.outsidevoicespodcast.com

You can also follow us on Instagram, @Outsidevoicespodcast

Outside Voices Podcast is a project by Resource Media. This episode was brought to life thanks to support from Merrell and The Avarna Group.

Until next time...