Episode 3: Pınar Sinopoulos-Lloyd (they/them/o/pay)

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Pınar: there's actually so many different ways to be like in community with the more than human world and it looks really different across cultures and it also looks additionally different, oftentimes for queer and trans people who find refuge with each other if they can't find refuge in their own cultures. So that's something that feels important to share regarding like, how do you how do we redefine outdoorsy and and I think we can do it like within community and also, you know, within like, our own cultures, which also include queer and trans culture.

[INTRO] Sarah: You’re listening to Outside Voices Podcast. We’re using our Outside Voices to redefine what it means to spend time outside and connect to nature. I’m your host, Sarah Shimazaki. Let’s get started.

Sarah- Narration: We’ve come to episode 3 of our four-part mini-series “Belonging”. “Belonging” features four individuals who identify as immigrants or first-generation, and shares stories about their personal and cultural connections to the outdoors. We decided to release this mini-series during the first week of July, around the federal holidays Canada Day and American Independence Day to challenge and redefine notions of what it means to be “outdoorsy,” or “American,” or “Canadian” and to celebrate EVERYONE’S right to find belonging outside. Our next guest is a dear friend, Pinar Sinopoulos-Lloyd.

Pınar: Allin punchaw! Allillanchu! Sutiyqa Pinar. Methowmanta kani. Merhaba, benim annem Andesdan geliyor ve Babam Turkiyeden. So I just shared in Quechua and in Turkish. Hi, my name is Pinar, I'm calling from Methow territory. My mother comes from the Andes and my father is from Turkey. And I'm calling actually from Methow Territory, so who I'm a visitor, whose lands that I'm on right now. And I use they/them pronouns. And I also use my mother and father tongues pronouns, which are actually gender neutral, which makes me so happy that we don't have any gendered pronouns. And so in Turkish, it’s “o” and in Quechua it’s “pay” And I'm the co-founder of Queer Nature, an organism that co creates queer and trans community through multi-species kinship practices, also known as survival skills, rites of passage and nature connection. And I'm also the founder of Indigequeers, which is a platform on Instagram, amplifying and centering the stories of Two-Spirit trans and non binary natives, and indigiqueers. And I just think the other thing that I just wanted to share too, is some of the identities that are at the forefront for me at the current moment, as I'm coming into this conversation, is that I'm trans and autistic, and also an immigrant and an indigenous migrant.

Sarah- Narration: I think a challenge this mini-series has definitely brought up is this binary between what it means to be an “immigrant” on stolen lands in this country and what it means to be “indigenous” to them, and how to reconcile that with this concept of finding belonging, finding home. As Pinar later mentions, this is a complex and nuanced topic. I think perhaps part of that nuance can be seen in Pinar’s own multi-layered, nonbinary identity as both an indigenous migrant, indigenous to the Andes, AND an immigrant.

Pınar: I grew up in Turkey. And so a lot of my memories are actually of like the first memory, I think that comes up actually is being in my dad's village in Malatya. And it's actually really sweet. So they're, my family owns, I don't know, if they actually own they actually rent almost the entire apartment complex because of how big our family is and so right outside and in their backyard, there's apricots, figs, and cherries and mulberries, like, you know, these trees outside these fruit trees. I would say, some of my earliest memories outside is, you know, a warm summer day and like picking these sun-warmed fruit off of the trees and just eating them, and just being in that pleasure and that awe of fruit trees. And so I would be picking them with my family, but also on my own just in the backyard. And you know, having picnics in the backyard or just being on our porch and eating like watermelon and having tea because tea is a huge thing in our culture, literally like 10 cups a day or more of black tea.

the village that my dad is from, is malatya. And that is actually where all the Turkish apricots, or most of the Turkish apricots come from. And so it's more inland, it's in the south east of Turkey. And I also grew up on the coast, just south of Kuşadası, and in this town called Güzelçamlı, which is really close to a park like a national park kind of a spot up there and all these beaches. So I also have a lot of memories of just being on the beach and being with water and being by the forests. And again, I was so young that there's not like they're mostly images, rather than like a story, you know, like, it's just more of like these images because they were just so foundational to who I am. And so I often share that I was raised by the Aegean sea and I also you know, was raised by apricots and figs and cherry trees too. 

Sarah- Narration:  When Pinar was about 5 years old, they experienced a sacrifice holiday in Turkey, which altered and transformed their relationship to nature.

Pınar: Kurban Bayramı, which is an Islamic holiday. And people who are Muslim might know differently in Arabic, and I don't know how to pronounce that holiday. So I won't, I won't butcher it here. But, um, yeah, so it's called the sacrifice holiday in Turkish. And it's, and sacrifice means to make sacred, and just like content   warning, it does involve, you know, a slaughtering of an animal. That's a part of our culture.

And so we would find like, a lamb or sorry, a sheep, like an older like an adult sheep, and we would have a village wide, ritual of taking their life and giving them death and then we would eat them. And as a community we would butcher them and it was like a whole public process, a very public ceremony in a lot of ways and an acknowledgement of sacrifice. 

I just remember having, you know, I can't really describe it with words very well, but just this really powerful and moving experience within community and with this beautiful sheep and, and feeling a lot of grief, you know, of what was happening, you know, giving death to a being, but it really was my first experience with death. And I think, you know, death is a is a really strong part, you know, aspect of the natural world. And, to me, that thread still continues that death and the giving of death and the cycle of death and rebirth is a big thread in my connection with the more-than-human world. You know, just honoring that it's a part of the ecosystem, it's a part of natural systems and, and just this honoring, and like, honoring of that, and the gravity of that and having it be in community and are very deeply rooted cultural practice. Yeah, just released, supported. it really supported my connection to the natural world, and actually was a huge part of why I became like, an animal rights activist and environmental activist 

I feel like oftentimes, death is so censored from people who are grown up in dominant Western cultures. You know, through mass agriculture, someone else does that work, you don't see it, you just see, you know, the meat in the grocery store. But where is that kinship and that relationship to the beings that you are, that you may choose to eat? Because obviously respecting people who choose not to, but also same with plants, you know, and vegetables, like, Where is that connection? Where is that relationship? And so, I think that that really informed that relationship is so important to connection with nature, and that feeding or feeding ourselves and nourishing ourselves with food is also a portal to that connection that we often miss. And I'm not perfect, by the way still, at having a relationship to everything I eat, like, it's just a prayer that I hold and want to, you know, acknowledge. And so I really am grateful for those memories and all that they've taught me.

Sarah- Narration: At 8 years old, Pinar moved to Turtle Island, or the United States. As they put it, it was an intense time to move, to say the least.

Pınar: a lot of people have asked me, Oh, you know, like was that hard? I'm like, Yeah,, you know, cultural shock is pretty intense and I was silent for six months because I didn't know English and I was thrown into like a public school where even though I didn't know English and so I would just like watch people and and I would have to relearn, you know, body language and like social cues, which is interesting, because I'm also autistic. So, I was trying to learn different, cultural norms and different languages. And so I was very observant and quiet, which actually is what brought me into nature connection, in a lot of ways, because those skills of observation is really, for me, at least is such a core part of nature connection is just like witnessing and listening to the more than human world. And I felt like such a, I don't know, just like a little creature when I was like, a young person who moved to Turtle Island is I just like watched people a lot because I just didn't understand the language and I didn't understand the norms. 

Sarah-Narration: As Pinar cultivated their relationship to nature and the outdoors, they met a bit of confusion from their parents, over this new choice of activities and lifestyle

Pınar: Both of my parents grew up in poverty, and my father grew up without electricity or running water in his village in malatya. With his eight siblings and, and his parents, who were both wheat farmers, so they farmed wheat, and yeah, in like this rural area and mulatto called Ed arch. And so when we moved to Turtle Island, my father who I say I called Baba. So that's the Turkish way of saying, Father, so my Baba didn't understand at all, why I wanted to learn how to live with the land, like through building shelters and foraging and hunting for my own food. And he was just so perplexed, he was like, why would you do that? that's what I got out of and, you know, my mom, too, is just like, why would you do that if we emigrated for you to not do that, essentially.

there's just like, this deep, like, perplexion and of like, some of my practices, but they've learned to accept, you know, accept my practices and and now I'm just seen as their weird nature kid, like, Oh, yeah, Pinar loves to like be in the woods and in the desert, like, yeah, just fasting and practicing these skills.

so now my father, he moved back to Turkey about like, over a decade ago at this point, and my mother lives in Puerto Rico or so called Puerto Rico and Borikén And so I actually don't have a lot of connection with them anymore, unfortunately, because they live so far away. But what's sweet is my my mother loves to garden. And that's kind of her connection to nature connection. which reminds me of when I learned quechua recently, in the last six months, and I had a professor, and then a TA, and the TA he lived actually in the Andes, like he was like, actively living in so-called Peru in his own village. And then my professor is also quechua 

so it was something really sweet happened where one of my Quechua classmates asked how do you say garden? Like if I'm going to garden, you know, today, how do you say garden in Quechua? And the TA said, kind of laugh, in a sweet way. he was like, smiling and laughing. He was like, I don't know, my whole town is a garden. and I just thought that that was so sweet that you know, there's so as I'm learning quechua there's like no word for hike, right? It's just like, Oh yeah, I'm going on a walk, you know, and that's just something that I've been learning you know, as I learn quechua which is just like it's just so delightful just to see different perspectives. And yeah, of what is you know, quote unquote, nature, Is there even a word for nature? Or the outdoors?

learning Quechua has actually really deepened my relationship with my mother who doesn't speak Quechua actually she's the generation that stopped and so but me teaching her all these things have actually really supported her and she is like this she always share with us she vicariously heals through me which is so so sweet. Such a sweet thing to say that to your child. And you know, my dad or my Baba least we still go like we will go on hikes together walks or whatever, together and it's really sweet when he comes to visit and he's actually coming to visit in a month, so I'm sure that will go on like a walk together soon, which, you know, he loves the birds and all the beings so yeah, so I think it's a really sweet relationship that has evolved through Yeah, through relationship with them. More than human world and I really struggle being inside that like indoors with people I because I you know, as someone who's autistic, I get really overstimulated easily indoors. And when I'm outside, it's way more I can regulate a lot more.

when I'm with them, and we're outside, we can pay attention to the more-than human-world together. And that is where I think like, I have a deeper access to relationship with them in this really beautiful way. 

Sarah-Narration: I love this image and idea of more deeply accessing your relationship with a person, just by being outside together. I’ve spoken about this before in our Manzanar episode, but it reminds me of my own grandmother, who I quietly bonded with despite a language barrier, by gardening with her in her backyard. For Pinar, who grew up in fairly urban areas and identifies as autistic, it can feel really overstimulating for them to be inside.

Pınar: I think it was also because a lot of my experiences indoors, as, as a kid was within like, therapy and kind of like psychiatric spaces as someone who's neurodivergent and was pathologized pretty often in pretty unconventional ways. so I think I knew that the outdoors quote, unquote, Like just not inside was a safer place for me. So it was a place that I could regulate more easily, it was a place that I could, you know, listen to the birds and sit by a tree just in like a park, watch the rain. And listen to the squirrels and the different birds outside and observe plants, even though I didn't know who they were or anything. Yeah, and I think that that's it, just, to me, the word outdoorsy is so interesting. I just think that to me, it means how one is, outside of, you know, the house, you know, but then, at the same time, I sometimes will, want to be inside my own home. And I also really like to challenge binaries, as a non binary person of like, indoor outdoor. And I still feel like I can connect to the natural world from inside, you know, through the window and looking at the stars or opening the window and feeling a breeze.

we're also ourselves are a part of the natural world. So it's like, even if we're inside, we're still connecting, you know, to ourselves and to the natural world. And so sometimes I feel like there is no divide in this way. So to me, I guess what, as I'm speaking about that outdoors, the way that I like to think about it is how am I like, tending to relationship right now. And it could be my own self, you know, my own internal ecosystem, or it can be you know, my cat, it could be the, the trees outside, or the stars outside or my ancestors. And to me that actually, all of those things means outdoors, even me.

And as someone who guides fasts, the four days, four nights fast, there's a story that I have that feels really important to share where. So I was co guiding with someone who is white, and doesn't really come from like, well, they're not an immigrant, they don't come from that kind of a background, like first gen. And there were two people that came to the fast, who were like Latinx queer folks. And they came together and they wanted to, like share a tent together, which is fine. But my co guide was like, Oh, actually, we want you to have space from each other because this is really like a reflective, contemplative experience. You know, this is your, your own personal experience right now. And I was just like, hey, no, that's not okay. Because there's different cultural, you know, there's different cultures that experience like camping in different ways, and like being outdoors in different ways. And I kind of pushed back and I was like, really trying to, protect these, like, queer young people, these queer people of color.

And what was really beautiful is when they were like, no, we're gonna attend together and I'm, like, great, we want to support that. And, and then during the four day for four night fast, you know, they're one of the like, aspects of, of that is like to be by yourself in the human world, at least not to be around other people. But I am really open to how it shows up, like across cultures. And so they actually, it was so sweet. They actually came together on their last night, because there was a lightning storm, and they were scared. And they found refuge with one another. And, and I was like, Wow, that was such a big part of the ceremony. You know, it's like, we can't just be like okay to be outdoors, is to be alone by yourself with minimal gear, really far away like that. You know what I mean?

Pınar: there's actually so many different ways to be like in community with the more than human world and it looks really different across cultures and it also looks additionally different, oftentimes for queer and trans people who find refuge with each other if they can't find refuge in their own cultures. So that's something that feels Yeah, like important to share regarding like, how do you how do we redefine outdoorsy and and I think we can do it like within community and also, you know, within like, our own cultures, which also include queer and trans culture.

Sarah-Narration: As they mentioned in their intro, Pinar is one of the co-founders of Queer Nature, where they co create queer and trans community through multi-species kinship practices, also known as survival skills, rites of passage and nature connection.

Pınar: our motto at Queer Nature is belonging as resistance, which, you know, especially as queer and trans folks, we're often told we're unnatural and don't belong.

And also, there's some nuance to it, too, because as you know, as an indigenous person, I don't want to be like, Oh, yeah, like belonging on non native land, or sorry, belonging on native land is like, really, it's complex and nuanced. And so there's also a way that belonging can be unsettling and unsettling in that word of specifically using that as a way of disrupting, like settler colonialism. And I think that there's a way in which the word belonging to, you know, in terms of people being told we're unnatural or don't belong, is even more amplified for trans queer intersex Black and or Indigenous people of color. And like, first, first generation, trans people. That, yeah, it's just, there's so much there. And as someone who's personally, you know, I grew up in Turkey, the last time I lived in Turkey was a little over a decade ago. I, you know, have been disowned from my family in Turkey. Because of transphobia. Specifically, and also queer phobia.

so belonging is really a word that hits really deep, you know, and I think about the natural world, and how biodiversity creates resilience in the system, or in communities. And yeah, and like belonging is political, and how can we also create our own belonging, and I think that a lot of people, you know, especially like, people of people of color, Black and or Indigenous people of color, especially queer and trans and intersex people of color, you know, we've like, created refuges for each other, because, it’s just not existing in like, the dominant culture of white supremacy. And so we're just like, we're gonna create our own, like, sanctuaries together, as as much as we're able to, you know, so that's something that I also really sit with is like, how do we create our own refuges for one another. And one of my, yeah, practices, I think, that has really taught me a lot around that is wildlife tracking. And so like tracking animals on the landscape, or tracking patterns on the landscape that are left by the more than human world and because they're such beautiful, beautiful beings who have adapted and survived the impacts of human supremacy and the impacts of, you know, of developments, etc. And climate chaos, they're also, you know, surviving that alongside with us. And so yeah, I think I've learned a lot about belonging through that and you know, listening to their stories as, as best as I'm able to as humbly as I'm able to, because I'm still very much like, feel like I'm an apprentice to wildlife tracking and like really learning how to listen to the beings of place who are just in such deep relationship to to the land. And I often think that that can really teach us a lot about what belonging means.

Pınar: my spouse, So Sinopoulos-Lloyd, the other co founder, is also first gen on their mother's side, who's from Greece.

I feel like it really informs the way that we move through the world, together as queer nature and also as, as a family. As I often I feel like I often find a lot of resonance with other people who are first gen. And I feel like there's a lot of Yeah, just a lot of beauty in that experience as first generation folks and also as immigrants. And also the intersection of that and like nature connection. It feels really, yeah, it just feels really important. And I feel like there's so much depth and complexity there that I haven't even put words to, but I just wanted to, to name that you know, as to trans and autistic people, my spouse and I are both trans and autistic, who were also either immigrants, indigenous migrants or first gen. Yeah, I just feel like there's just so much complexity and richness where our cultures can interact with one another. And, and it's just, I think it creates like home in such a beautiful way. And not to just share about me and just So but also just communities who have that in common, especially, you know, as queer and trans folks to it's like, how do we create, like, home together and also, like, bring in, you know, our cultural, our cultures, even if they may have disowned us, like, we can still cook cook food with each other, like our, you know, our, our food, our cultural foods, like we can still bring in our cultural practices, even if we're severed from our families due to you know, transphobia or queer phobia and, or due to language barriers. And I just feel like there's so much richness there to be able to share that with one another. And, and it's just something that I feel so comforted by, like, I don't know, there's some such deep comfort there for me of just like, sharing food sharing, like cultural practices, like in like, you know, appropriate like wave like in ways that honor each other and not like that are yet that are honoring of one another and that are relational. And so I think I'm just sitting with that right now. And in, in this conversation is just like how, how, how nourishing that is like how mutually nourishing that is.

[OUTRO]

Wow. So much gratitude to Pinar, for their wisdom, gentle energy, beautiful stories, and important perspectives. Y’all may want to hit replay on this episode, because there was a LOT to reflect on in this episode. I know I will.

Our beautiful logo and cover art was designed by Brooklyn Bell and this lovely music you hear at the beginning and end of every episode was performed by Olivia VanDamme and produced by Jamison Blue Stegmaier

All credits, links and resources can be found on our website: outsidevoicespodcast.com

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Outside Voices Podcast is a project by Resource Media. Belonging is a mini-series made in partnership with Merrell

Until next time. 

AD: Special thanks again, to our friends at Merrell, for partnering with us on Belonging, a mini-series featuring immigrants and their relationships to the outdoors. Merrell believes that no matter who you are, where you come from, who you love or how you move — Everyone should be welcome in the outdoors and wherever life takes us.